Possibility of inaccurate feedback?

[arlo]

Hi, friends, I'm wondering if any kind of safeguard is in place against possible misidentification. There seems to be a lot of crowdsourced ID going on, which is great for everyone EXCEPT in the cases that members of the "crowd" hand out inaccurate identifications. Other spider ID forums I participate in are repeatedly plagued by alarmists who ID everything as a brown recluse and advise killing it with fire.

So, do Admin members go through and check every thread?

I recently posted a pisaurid in this thread: http://www.spiders.us/forums/showthread.php?t=2547 and you can see in the feedback that two responders ratify a genus ID which may or may not be based on evidence. This wiki list of Dolomedes species does not include any Central American members: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cies#Dolomedes

As helpful as Phil and Ungoliant are trying to be, I think in this case they are overreaching. What's the best way to approach this?

[Kyle]

Hi, friends, I'm wondering if any kind of safeguard is in place against possible misidentification. There seems to be a lot of crowdsourced ID going on, which is great for everyone EXCEPT in the cases that members of the "crowd" hand out inaccurate identifications. Other spider ID forums I participate in are repeatedly plagued by alarmists who ID everything as a brown recluse and advise killing it with fire.

So, do Admin members go through and check every thread?

I recently posted a pisaurid in this thread: http://www.spiders.us/forums/showthread.php?t=2547 and you can see in the feedback that two responders ratify a genus ID which may or may not be based on evidence. This wiki list of Dolomedes species does not include any Central American members: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cies#Dolomedes

As helpful as Phil and Ungoliant are trying to be, I think in this case they are overreaching. What's the best way to approach this?

Hi arlo,

Let me first mention the process we go through before answering your questions specifically.

1. Someone submits a picture for identification. Majority of users have the perspective of.. "I'm scared of spiders, will this kill me?"
2. We let the community ID this picture first. For one, it's healthy for the growth of the community. And, we just don't have the time. In fact, we've had to shutdown the forum multiple times now because there honestly hasn't been any real money to be made to fund our time.
3. Eric and Mandy will eventually review the thread and may comment if necessary. This may take a few days (see lack of funding).
4. Thread is moved to our growing archived taxonomy (http://www.spiders.us/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=7). This can only be done by Eric, Mandy or myself.

In the case of your example, questioning identification is exactly what we want to see happen. That thread is still young, but if you have any examples of older threads that were clearly neglected or off on identification, please let me know. Those are situations that shouldn't happen as we do review practically every thread.

What makes what we're trying to do here different is we're engaging more with non-science minded folk, including people that are terrified of spiders and would burn them with fire every chance they get. This requires a certain level of patience and a different attitude than if this was a community only for spider enthusiasts. It makes for more of a challenge, but that larger audience is important.

Maybe some of that was too much info.. but I hope it gives you a better understanding of what we're trying to do. As always, let us know if you have any better ideas of improvements as this is a constant work in progress.

[arlo]

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply.

[Ungoliant]

I recently posted a pisaurid in this thread: http://www.spiders.us/forums/showthread.php?t=2547 and you can see in the feedback that two responders ratify a genus ID which may or may not be based on evidence. This wiki list of Dolomedes species does not include any Central American members: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...cies#Dolomedes

As helpful as Phil and Ungoliant are trying to be, I think in this case they are overreaching. What's the best way to approach this?

FYI, I was agreeing that it was a pisaurid and not a lycosid, which was the question in the topic title. (A wolf spider's eyes are much different.) I've clarified my response so as not to confuse people.

Different ID opinions are welcome. I'm just an amateur, so I am always learning. I like to know when I make the right call, but I learn a lot from reading the replies to spiders that I couldn't ID.

[JumpSpidersInc]

I would tell arlo what his spider is, on that thread.... but: since I supposedly spread false imformation, I am not even bothering to respond to it. Nor will I respond to anything he posts.

People here are only trying to help, arlo. I think the over-reacting statement you made above is uncalled for.

How this forum works with ID:

A poster asks for help in identifying something. Replies are posted by amateurs. One of the experts then comes along (when they have time in their busy schedules) and reviews the thread with answers given by amateurs. If the ID is wrong, that expert will correct "us", and teach us the things we need to know about the subject. If the answers are correct, the amateurs are "rewarded" with praise.

Don't be so quick to jump the gun. We are all here for the same thing:

To LEARN. To DISCUSS. To ENJOY being here.

JSI

[Mandy]

[original comment deleted; I think everyone subscribed here can read it in their inbox, eek]

[Mandy]

I forgot some things that I didn't want to delete... I wanted to say that Phil and Ungoliant are always helpful and are accurate and right on target FAR more often than not and that we appreciate all the time and effort they have put into these forums. None of us are experts (even Eric and I are constantly learning new things), and it is a group effort here.

(And Costa Rican spiders are going to be difficult for anyone here to correctly identify, including Eric and I...)

At the same time, there's nothing wrong with an "I don't know" or "no comment" and Arlo makes a good point that things should be researched before being commented on, especially things that are obviously outside of our range of expertise (this applies to me just as much as anyone else).

[Phil]

I'm kinda shocked to find out how serious this is. Don't you guys have scientific methods for real ID's on possible new species? How does this forum add any value to your science?

Here is my perspective.

Arlo, you are a professional biologist. Why would you even ask if it was a wolf spider or fishing spider if you already knew? I mean seriously man, I saw you start posting for ID help on here and was boggled, like, is this the same Arlo I follow on facebook?

What are you guys planning to do with these drive by ID requests? Is it a benefit to the science community or does that already have a very sharp method for IDing species? Take a look at the aim, the purpose for this forum, and ask yourself, does someone mistaking dolomedes for a species of tinus hurt that goal, or are you being... well, a jerk! two very similar looking spiders btw, not like anyone said "oh hey, that orbweaver is a brown recluse". Let me ask you Arlo, Mandy... Does anyone argue with you about ID's? Or does the expert foot come down and the rest of the thread goes in line? That is how a forum works.

You can already see what you are doing to your public audience, your crushing it, you can see it in this thread. Your brutal needs for 100% accuracy in a public forum is going to strangle all the superusers who help contribute right off the forum.

Is your goal a public forum where no imperfections happen? Make it an invite only forum, or keep it so only experts can reply to topics. VB4 IIRC* lets you set rules for replying.

I run a successful forum for a fortune 500 company using Lithiums client, and in another year I'll be running another one. I don't know spiders well, but I guarantee I know forums better then anyone here, whether it is SaaS, php, smh or VB3-5.0. The community concept is the same. You guys are trying way to hard to control reply content that really, is irrelevant. Sally asks what her spider is and someone says definitely neoscona, when it is actually not. But, so what? An expert comes in and corrects, as is the natural way that forum communities work, all of them. You think when sally with 1 post, who never returns to the forum, goes home and tells bob the neighbor that her spider is neoscotcha instead of saying Uranuses, that she is going to be impacted by this "miss-information"? Naw. If Sally does return, and keeps returning, she will quickly learn who the real experts are, as anyone who frequents the forum does. This is how forums work! You should be focused on your superusers, the people on your forum who are over 100 posts, over 300 posts. THESE are your true audience. Be nice to them, use a soft touch, and have some patients. We, unlike you, do not do this for a living or take it nearly as serious.

You will not be successful in making a forum that has hard reply rules. Just let people post and have fun! I'll be honest, in over a decade of using forums I have never had such rigid, critical, evaluations of my posts. Ever. I have 3 accounts with over 10k posts. I do this for a living like you do bugs/spiders.

Trust me, for your own sanity, take a chill pill and leave the science to the scientists (Arlo, mandy, eric), and use methods that are designed for ensuring accurate information. Use the forum for a forum.... Let people who like spiders get a chance to interact with experts and learn something.

Think about your goal for the forum, if this is it, a hard science community, then you need to get a hard science audience, not a public one. I thought this forum was doing great, you have lots of superusers emerging, who will learn, but never be perfect or scientific, great daily volume. The only thing that is going to ruin this forum is the moderation, and it is already happening. I don't know if I will return here again, maybe I'll be over it tomorrow and come right back, maybe I'll delete it off my bookmarks... but the fact I'm feeling that, is proof your doing it wrong.

I hope you guys know how much I respect what you do, and how much people like me look up to you.